Your thoughts? (a long read)

[guinner]

...I am a bit alarmed by the judgment that the flirtation, fantasising, mutual cyber masturbation etc etc that I engage in here is wrong because I have a partner whom I love and want to be with and who doesn't share this interest. If I didn't have a partner, presumably it would be fine. To be honest, I find this view very alarming.

Bethfan,
When you have sex with another woman without your partner’s knowledge, would that be oke? By definition that is not a question a single person needs to ask him or herself.
the fact you’re in a committed relationship DOES make your situation different from those who don’t have a partner, how can it not?

Anyway, this conversation has shifted from “is it oke to steal panties and jack off with them” to “what can be considered wrong when it comes to masturbation, etc.”. I’ve seen the latter discussed on these boards before, and even though it is an interesting thing to discuss, I don’t think there is a general rule of thumb everyone could agree upon.

Other than actual physical contact, things like flirtation, fantasizing, mutual cyber masturbation all fall in a gray area that will be judged differently, depending on the person. Again, none of these things are “wrong” when you’re single. Why? Because these actions cannot harm your partner.
And that’s the whole point…you cannot say in general if flirting or fantasizing or mutual masturbation are “wrong” things to do for a person in a committed relationship. It all depends on your partner, and if it will hurt him/her or your relationship.

and maybe answering that question does not answer the question if it's "wrong" to do any of these things either.
example: I wouldn't believe it if my partner told me he did not fantasize about other women once in a while (or a lot, lol). In fact, I'd find it pretty alarming if he didn't. I think it's in the human nature to fantasize, it teaches you about yourself, broadens the mind, hell, it's where good ideas for the bedroom are born, haha.
BUT, that doesn't mean I'd appreciate it if he sat me down to have a conversation about it and go over all the details of how he would fuck his fantasy woman, lol.

now, that brings me right back to the panty incident....(yeah, I'm talking to you now outsider, lol)
if you disregard the fact that they were stolen for now, I'd say the action was driven by fantasies. And I still think fantasies are oke. BUT that does not mean I'd appreciate it to be confronted with it if my guy did that. The panties themselves could make that happen...one woman missing some panties, or another woman finding an excess of panties...even though that's probably highly unlikely, that would bring about a very uncomfortable situation, so not very smart in my opinion (dude, toss them out)

if you do not disregard the fact that they were stolen....they were stolen!! wtf were you thinking?
lol, seriously, it made me laugh, it's not like stealing anything valuable, and it will not likely be missed. But it's still stealing, and even though that might be a big word in this case, I think we could agree on the fact that it was just inappropriate to do so.


oh, and a question in general
what exactly is the attraction of underwear? I mean, finding dirty underwear laying around from either a male or a female partner would make me mumble slob and then throw it in the washer. Also never had a relationship with any of their clean underwear for that matter.
So now I wonder if that is exclusively a guy thing?
And if so, are all guys attracted to underwear....or most....or some....or just outsider? (lol, that last one was a joke, sorry dude)

[LoveThyself!]

Alright, so I made a light-hearted post in this thread earlier. But let me get real for just a second.

First of all, this is a forum - where people share thoughts and ideas. You don't have to agree with those thoughts and ideas at all. Nor should you get worked up when someone else challenges your line of reasoning. Just read it at face value, take the parts that make sense to you and assimilate them into your 'big picture', and ditch the rest. That's called life. I've read the original post and can see some of the allure, and while my actions would have been different (not ever having rummaged through the drawers in the first place) I'm not so abhorrently opposed to the idea that thoughts of other women never enter my head, which was kind of the gist of the other extreme point of view in this thread.

That said, I agree with my very, very good friend Guinner in that it is perfectly natural to think of other people when you are in a committed relationship. You do it when you are alone/single because that's human nature. You don't stop being human when you say 'I do'. Sure, most of your thoughts are about your significant other, but from time to time it's totally natural for your mind to drift to someone else, like Guinner and that rockin' ass she's got.

How your partner will react is very individual and unique, as she said above. And we all have that gray area to play in which pushes the boundaries and can be fun. But don't be stupid. Women know a hell of a lot more than they ever let on about their men (at least in my experience) and I guarantee you that your wife knows something is up.

Get rid of them. Be done with this. Move on.

[Niagra]

If that is the case, then what the fuck are we all doing here?? What are you doing here? Is this for singles only?

Well personally I am masturbating aren't you? I think thats what most of us do? Since when is that only for single folks and when does masturbating become bad? It doesn't and perhaps I have not been clear enough. I don't think it is wrong to have those "oh my God look at that hot mama" moments, or even to look at porn for visual stimulus in your regular jacking routine. Honestly it is nothing but just a tool to get off by. This though is very different and you must admit that. See , when we conduct ourselves in real life, outside of the cyber world, we all have a responsibility to our partners to truly control our sexual behavior and or urges. It is what the vow is all about. This is difficult at times because it is perfectly natural to get urges and sexual thoughts about another on a regular basis.

The fact of the matter is this, and this is my golden nugget to live by, if my actions would hurt the partner I have chosen or if they would hurt me should the shoe be on his foot, then it just should not happen. Now always remember Niagra realizes there will always be special circumstances and I don't judge anyone who comes here. I don't think for a moment that EVERYONE is doing a bad thing by being here this is just not so. I for one am single as are many, but not all married people keep their love of masturbation a secret from their partners or their online affiliation here. In fact because of this forum , several folks have told their partners for the first time the truth and it was glorious for the couple. As a matter of fact ... things could not be better with those who have gotten up the nerve.

I will say this again, except in certain very special and rare cases, it is my opinion that you should not be hiding anything from your significant other and always be who you are and real . It will free your soul to fly!! to soar and to be all you can be. Living with secrets can only hold you down.

Now I say that so easily because I am not faced with explaining my hidden life to someone I have loved and lived with for awhile. Easy for me to say and I realize that. I could never imagine to judge any one here because I have issues of my own to deal with. Lord knows no one can be perfect and when we fail we must learn from mistakes and go on knowing it won't happen quite that way next time. Well, unless you are me... I am the idiot who must learn things at least 3 times before I get it. Makes life a bitch but thats me!. Anyway, I know lots of the people that come here have not gotten up the nerve to be completely honest yet , some may never, but that is only for them to worry about. This place is about masturbation and sharing experiences with others of like minds. So maybe you are guilty of something , maybe not, I love yas no matter what... thats just how I feel. OK?

I know this all may sound trivial when compared to those who do actually physically cheat on their partners but I don't do that. In fact, coming to this forum, watching porn, fantasizing about other women, online chatting, etc., etc. have actually prevented me from physically cheating.

Outsider I see you are struggling with this, and listen you I think understand and did then it may have not been a hallmark moment in your life, but most of us here understand it and understand why you liked it too. btw Please do not put those panties back and toss them out or send them to Alan, he is prepared for the tremendous sacrifice, in an effort to help you out!! lol All I am saying in my somewhat strong words is that you should have controlled your sexual desires better. Perhaps for you and your woman this would not bother her? I just know it would really hurt me to know to the extent you lusted for a real life person we had been around together. I'm not saying shes not hot and I'm not saying you can't want to fuck her for a minute, but I am saying as soon as you realized you would love to fuck her, you should do everything in your power to dismiss the thoughts when they come because that is controlling your sexual real life urges and being true to your vow. I sure hope you understand that I think you are a good guy and everything...

What you said in this quoted statement is indeed the other side of this issue. I agree 100% that having an outlet like this forum where men and woman can come and truly explore the most fierce or the most gentle of desires inside them , has literally enabled thousands of people to stay faithful and I would even say saved marriages. I mean that. I am not ever going to say that anyone .. ANYONE should not be honest about their sexual desires and needs especially to their partner, but for the time that you haven't or even if you have this place is a fantastic way to relieve sexual tension, to talk about it even helps. To just be in a sexual conversation or read about it can help with that. The biggest thing though I think is that we can take a walk as far as we want to the wild side of us. And perhaps that is a place better kept to yourself at home but can be experienced here. Cyber world is not always a violation IMO and in fact can truely help others feel satisfied and sexually content. Keeping relationships together if unequally matched sexually. Yes indeed this is a good place to be on many levels, yet to imagine feeling shame for being here or having to hide being here, has got to be a big bummer. So I can understand what happened to you outsider and I hope you all can see that I do. As for beating yourself up stop it. It happened , you have obviously owned it (the act) now take what you want from it and throw the rest away.. Forgive yourself and mosey on to your next mistake .. thats what life is all about. xx

[Canuck28]

The question regarding the issue here isn't the physical, I think everyone agrees ...Physical sexual relations in any fashion with anyone outside of your marraige ot outside of the person you are in a relationship with without there consent and agreement is CHEATING....I think everyone agrees on that.........NOW.......There are several arguments around Cybersex...........Mutual Cyber masturbation......phonesex........camming...........and I don't think its a grey a matter as one would like to believe......The fact is you would still be participating in a sexual act with another person...not physically...but still participating.....your still doing it without your partner or husband/wifes consent....therefor it is cheating....period..........I watched an episode of DR. Phil one time and he disscussed this very matter...cyber/e-mail/phone sex.....and his response was simple...... Any Thing you do, that you cannot tell your spouse about is considered cheating..........any e-mail you can't show your spouse.........any phonecall you feel they can't be apart of......His take and he is a professional in the family and relationship field... if your in a relationship and its really real...its 100% honesty...period.....because if your not 100% honest with your partner, your not 100% in the relationship and thats not fair too them.... I'm not telling anyone here what they should or shouldn't do, just telling you the way I see it.....and before I get jumped on, NO I am NOT Married........

[LoveThyself!]

Dude... you're Canadian AND you watch Dr. Phil.... that's two strikes right there, man!

[Canuck28]

ok...............#1 I'm not going to sink into the ignorant comment about being Canadian....
and #2.... Nothing wrong with Dr. Phil... Sounds to me like someone is in denial in regards to my comments.....

[Mani]

I think Dr. Phil is 100% correct - and I also think he sets an impossible standard that no human being can possibly live up to. His ideas are a setup for unnecessary angst and guilt. It's psychological Puritanism.

[Niagra]

Canuck i applaud your posting and not sinking to lovethyselfs ribbing .. he really is just kidding . But I thinks you might be on to something with the denial comment though hehe ... ooooo hes gonna have my cute hot ass in a sling for that one but ... i calls em likes i sees em. No actually i think his may really be one of those really rare exceptions.

Mani .. I don't know enough to comment on the Mr. Phil thing. k.. so I will keep me mouth zippered .

[bethfan]

When you have sex with another woman without your partner’s knowledge, would that be oke?

Of course not.

By definition that is not a question a single person needs to ask him or herself. the fact you’re in a committed relationship DOES make your situation different from those who don’t have a partner, how can it not? Anyway, this conversation has shifted from “is it oke to steal panties and jack off with them” to “what can be considered wrong when it comes to masturbation, etc.”. I’ve seen the latter discussed on these boards before, and even though it is an interesting thing to discuss, I don’t think there is a general rule of thumb everyone could agree upon.

What I'm finding hard to deal with is that, until now, I thought that this was a place where we could come and act out our sexual fantasies in a safe, non-judgmental environment, irrespective of who we were in real life. I know that lots of the people here are married and wouldn't want not to be. And I understand absolutely where they're coming from. And I thought everyone thought that was OK. Niagra's post made me confront a scenario where I was "caught" and that caused a deep rift. And, hey, it could happen. I don't need to ask, BTW. After 25 years, I know! So things have settled into a mutually beneficial arrangement which we both enjoy. Niagra's post injected a dose of guilt into the discussion and guilt is the one thing I find hard to deal with. I love my wife. Truly, madly, deeply. I guess you have to be a bit older to understand that your true love may not be 100% sexually compatible with you. In fact, I think you have to be young to still hold the view that you couldn't trade a spot of sexual mismatch for the myriad of other hugely important things that go into a long-term, loving relationship.

[Outsider]

Alan,
I’ll get those panties mailed right out to you. Thanks for taking them off my hands.

Guinner,
I completely agree with you. Stealing is stealing, whether it’s a nickel or $500 or a pair of panties, the principle is the same.

As far as the attraction of underwear, I can only speak for myself but it’s just the fact that knowing a sexy lady has had them against the most desirable parts of her body that does it for me. I am not interested in dirty underwear but only clean underwear that has been worn by them. And, for me, it’s not a fetish at all and I don’t go out of my way or do crazy things in attempts to see, touch or obtain these things.
Maybe it’s just me though. I don’t mind the jokes at all, a sense of humor is a great thing.

LoveThyself!,
If not for the fact that this couple has moved away and will not be back to this house, I also would not have looked through the drawers and I most certainly would not have taken the panties. I know it doesn’t change the fact that it was wrong but knowing that they are gone along with (as far as they know) all their clothes sort of disconnected them, in my mind, from the house. Had they simply been gone on vacation and I was going over to take care of the place, I would have done none of this.
By the way, the “sweatband” comment cracked me up.

Niagra,
I want to fuck her much longer than a minute.
Seriously, as long as I am married I will control my real life urges, no question. To me this was just a slight extension of a fantasy that will go no further.

Canuck28,
all good points. (and LT was joking!)

Again, thanks for the thoughts everybody. Keep them coming.

[Alan]

[quote="Outsider"]Alan,
I’ll get those panties mailed right out to you. Thanks for taking them off my hands.


Just wanted you to know that I was "pulling" for your panty emergency.

[Canuck28]

Ok......Outsider and LT.........I took the canadian thing the wrong way.......my bad........Sorry....and I just wanted to say its nice to be able to have a calm well balanced respectfull conversation about all this..........so Thanks everyone for being so respectful and for all the great opinions.......everyone has one and everyone is entitled too one!!

[rdl30]

Man that got my cock hard reading your story. I have a huge panty fetish. I have never took any, but I have sneaked into a laundry room a time or two and got me some good sniffs.

[Lickup]

Dude, who cares, just take them and forget about it, maybe I dont have a conscience or anything, but if I saw them, Id take them and not even have a second though about it, Id look at it as a great find and a lucky find, I would NEVER consider the morality of it.